What if Japan was a colonial super power before the 19th century?

What if after the Sengoku Jidai, instead of trying to wage a war against China, they try to go for an easier target; the americas, and doesn't go isolationist. Considering Sailors from China were the first native americans (and not Siberians) I think they could do it.
Would Japanese colonization lead to it's colonies in the americas being 1st world, like british settler colonies, or 3rd world like most of the spanish colonies?
 
What if after the Sengoku Jidai, instead of trying to wage a war against China, they try to go for an easier target; the americas, and doesn't go isolationist. Considering Sailors from China were the first native americans (and not Siberians) I think they could do it.
Would Japanese colonization lead to it's colonies in the americas being 1st world, like british settler colonies, or 3rd world like most of the spanish colonies?
I'm doubtful Japan had any capacity to build or maintain a strong enough navy to be able to reach the Americas, settle them and then defend those colonies against the much stronger European empires.

Perhaps a Christian Shogunate backed by the Portuguese might have an easier time doing this, but I think you need a very early PoD and a much stronger Christian presence in Japan to be able to secure such an outcome. Sengoku might be a little too late for this.
 
From "can do" to "want to do" there's an enormous distance. It's anything but easy to spend lots of money and time trying to move people out of rich and developed lands they know well on to a totally undeveloped and mostly unknown land (quite possibly unsuited to your usual crops, too!) a few thousand kilometers away.
Infrastructure has never been cheap, you know? And polities are made by people, they don't enjoy hindsight or Pdox GSG level of information.
 
The thing is that while Sengoku era Japan did have the capacity in terms of naval tech and institutions to do so, a mostly unknown continent populated by barbarians is going to way down on their list of priorities compared to Taiwan (which they actually planned to conquer), the Philippines (same, plus Spain was deemed a potential threat), and Southeast Asia in general (because of trade/anti-government ronin hanging out in local Nihonmachi merchant quarters there).

After that would come Manchuria and coastal Siberia, since that has similar resources to Hokkaido/Ezo and the Manchu were deemed a threat to Japan but also theoretically a good trade partner. Only THEN would they start poking around in the Aleutians and Alaska and eventually find the amount of ivory and jade in circulation among Native Americans there. And only after that would they reach areas suitable for large-scale cultivation, but maybe there wouldn't be too much time elapsed since they'd have access to European maps by then and would know they could sail south to reach Mexican ports and theoretically trade directly with Spain. My guess is if relations aren't terrible, then Spain would permit that and probably confine them to Acapulco.

But the Sengoku era Japanese weren't really about settler colonies, since they only did so in southern Ezo (which already had a history of Japanese settlement going back to the 12th century) and left the rest of the area with only temporary merchant quarters. Alaska is too distant for that, but you wouldn't see much more than Russian Alaska-style colonies, although maybe more numerous and larger because it's a good source of ivory and jade and the disease environment isn't as bad as Southeast Asia. So most "Japanese" would be allied Native American groups and a creole community.

I don't think with this model they'd get much further south than Cape Mendocino, and anything south of the Columbia River/Willamette Valley would be a string of coastal trading posts at the mouths of decent-sized rivers, and even these might just be places they visited every now and then to trade. That's why I think you need a radically different POD to get Japan interested in settlement colonies, and that just isn't going to happen come the Sengoku era. Granted, I think the number of Japanese citizens/mixed race people who identify with Japan might be substantial in this area given the experience of Quebec, potentially tens of thousands by 1800, plus with many Native American allies who might be a little better off TTL if they adapt agriculture come 1700 or so rather than the late 1700s. Pacific Northwest Indians learned farming and obtained crops from white traders, and although they never cleared forest or used fertiliser or let it interfere with burning oak prairies, they farmed potatoes and combined with muskets you had a similar situation to Musket Wars-era New Zealand).
Considering Sailors from China were the first native americans (and not Siberians) I think they could do it.
What makes you say China? Just because some Native Americans migrated not by Beringia but by hugging the coast doesn't mean they came from China.
I'm doubtful Japan had any capacity to build or maintain a strong enough navy to be able to reach the Americas, settle them and then defend those colonies against the much stronger European empires.
Not necessarily, given the only European advantage was naval technology and maybe artillery. But so far from any major bases, the advantage is about even given the Japanese were efficient at producing muskets and were capable of innovating their naval designs as OTL history proves before sakoku was passed (and in the 19th century when faced with threats from Europe in the north).

The Spanish Empire's own record in the colonies shows they probably wouldn't have been able to seize a Japanese colony in California, let alone the Pacific Northwest, or even know it was there for potentially decades after it was founded (unless the Japanese decided to get in on the piracy game and attacked the Manila galleons as they passed Cape Mendocino). The currents and winds point the wrong direction from Mexico and they'd have to sail past the very dry Baja Peninsula across a rocky and fog-covered coast.
 
coastal Siberia, since that has similar resources to Hokkaido/Ezo and the Manchu were deemed a threat to Japan but also theoretically a good trade partner. Only THEN would they start poking around in the Aleutians and Alaska
What if they did Coastal Siberia, then poked around to Aleutians & Alaska, due to needing new world resources to put up a fight against the Manchus, Chinese and/or Spanish?
Do you think that maybe during the peninsular war, the Japanese would conquer the Philippines?
What makes you say China? Just because some Native Americans migrated not by Beringia but by hugging the coast doesn't mean they came from China.
Got it from WIAH
 
What if they did Coastal Siberia, then poked around to Aleutians & Alaska, due to needing new world resources to put up a fight against the Manchus, Chinese and/or Spanish?
The New World would likely be a net drain in resources and projects only backed by certain merchants.
Do you think that maybe during the peninsular war, the Japanese would conquer the Philippines?
It's certainly possible.
 
Not necessarily, given the only European advantage was naval technology and maybe artillery. But so far from any major bases, the advantage is about even given the Japanese were efficient at producing muskets and were capable of innovating their naval designs as OTL history proves before sakoku was passed (and in the 19th century when faced with threats from Europe in the north).

The Spanish Empire's own record in the colonies shows they probably wouldn't have been able to seize a Japanese colony in California, let alone the Pacific Northwest, or even know it was there for potentially decades after it was founded (unless the Japanese decided to get in on the piracy game and attacked the Manila galleons as they passed Cape Mendocino). The currents and winds point the wrong direction from Mexico and they'd have to sail past the very dry Baja Peninsula across a rocky and fog-covered coast.
I can concede that technology-wise they might be able to pull it off with some luck and with a less determined Spanish Empire, but I think it's highly dependent on who emerges victorious out of the late Sengoku struggle. I don't think Tokugawa was ever going to pursue a colonial empire in the Americas, but other more outward looking factions might.

Do you think a surviving Toyotomi regime would give up on its designs for a Japanese conquest of East Asia and move on to securing a foothold in the Americas? Would perhaps an early conquest of Hawaii to secure a closer outpost be plausible? I do maintain my opinion, which you seem to share, that Sengoku is a little bit late for this, but I'm wondering if there's something else that would drive a Sengoku Era regime to pursue a different kind of colonial policy.

An earlier PoD of a more outward looking busho, such as Oda, winning the civil war and establishing a different shogunate could also lead to an attempt to colonize the Americas, however it's very arguable that this alt-Japan would (1) be able to consolidate internally and quash dissent fast enough before moving on to external conquests and (2) would be willing to give up one conquering China and Korea for something as exotic and unknown as the Americas.
 
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But the new world colonies were very profitable for Spain, Portugal & France
For Spain and Portugal, yes.

France's most profitable colonies in the New World were not it's extensive territories in Canada and Louisiana, but rather it's Caribbean territories. By the end of the Seven Years War, France gave up New France just to retain Guadeloupe and Martinique, as it's sugar islands were much more valuable.
 
I can concede that technology-wise they might be able to pull it off with some luck and with a less determined Spanish Empire, but I think it's highly dependent on who emerges victorious out of the late Sengoku struggle. I don't think Tokugawa was ever going to pursue a colonial empire in the Americas, but other more outward looking factions might.

Do you think a surviving Toyotomi regime would give up on its designs for a Japanese conquest of East Asia and move on to securing a foothold in the Americas? Would perhaps an early conquest of Hawaii to secure a closer outpost be plausible? I do maintain my opinion, which you seem to share, that Sengoku is a little bit late for this, but I'm wondering if there's something else that would drive a Sengoku Era regime to pursue a different kind of colonial policy.

An earlier PoD of a more outward looking busho, such as Oda, winning the civil war and establishing a different shogunate could also lead to an attempt to colonize the Americas, however it's very arguable that this alt-Japan would (1) be able to consolidate internally and quash dissent fast enough before moving on to external conquests and (2) would be willing to give up one conquering China and Korea for something as exotic and unknown as the Americas.
I agree the Tokugawa would not, but Oda very possibly could, and maybe Toyotomi as well, although he'd have to quell his ambitions regarding China. But in both cases, their colonial interests lay in Asia.

Hawaii is awkward to reach from East Asia because the winds and currents go much north and south of the islands. It possibly was by the Spanish, but it was so out of the way that they didn't even bother to explore it, let alone trade there or set up a station for provisioning their galleons. In any case, I believe it's easier to reach from Manila/the Philippines than Japan since most sea routes from Japan to America "naturally" lead to a stretch of land between the Aleutians and Vancouver Island.

I just don't see the settler colony model one early modern Japan might follow. Japan was not full in this era, since the perspective of government authorities was that if they wanted more land for the peasants under their command, they just needed to hire some engineers and drain some land/build irrigation and flood protection. Most of the area around modern Tokyo and nearby prefectures was marshland or shallow seas in 1500, but a century or two later was incredibly productive farmland. And there were similar projects done all over Japan.

Although I can think of one reason--because the 17th century Japanese didn't know Sakhalin was separate from Hokkaido and the mainland, so it was believed the Manchu might try and invade Japan. This actually had precedent in Japanese history since it was feared the Mongols might do the exact same thing (hence probable Japanese support to anti-Mongol Ainu tribes in 1297) and Japan actually was attacked by a large Jurchen pirate fleet in 1019. So you'd have to make those fears more realistic and make the Later Jin/early Qing more maritime and make a few raids on Japan for the sake of gaining wealth/slaves/livestock to help their conquest of China.

Perhaps add this to something like Shakushain's rebellion on Hokkaido, and maybe some early penetration by European explorers (especially if they're Russian), and that might convince the Shogunate that they need to subdue the entire island and push onward to Sakhalin and the Kurils. Maybe Shakushain has some European firearms with him, or maybe he has some token Manchu diplomats/warriors accompanying him, or both to really stoke the paranoia. Since Sakhalin and the Kurils aren't as convenient to Japan as Hokkaido is, that might get a true colonial empire started in that direction which might have more of a settler colony feel if they replicate something like Hokkaido, where one area is for Japanese settlement and the rest is for trading posts with the natives. Kamchatka and Alaska both are areas where marginal agriculture is feasible, so this could theoretically work until the Japanese get to actually decent land like Vancouver Island and the core area of the PNW.
 
For Spain and Portugal, yes.

France's most profitable colonies in the New World were not it's extensive territories in Canada and Louisiana, but rather it's Caribbean territories. By the end of the Seven Years War, France gave up New France just to retain Guadeloupe and Martinique, as it's sugar islands were much more valuable.
Skills issue The French were never quite serious about building up their NA colonies. Much of it came down to neglect, like them never really bothered to settle the lands, even though Louisiana for example was perfect for settlement. That said, despite the ‘unprofitable’ nature of NF, I don’t think they were quite a net drain either. Apart from the few regiments in NF, most expenditure was deducted off whatever the local gov could gather.
 
What if after the Sengoku Jidai, instead of trying to wage a war against China, they try to go for an easier target; the americas, and doesn't go isolationist. Considering Sailors from China were the first native americans (and not Siberians) I think they could do it.
Would Japanese colonization lead to it's colonies in the americas being 1st world, like british settler colonies, or 3rd world like most of the spanish colonies?
There’s no point going so far away to invade literally fuck all when like Korea and China are just next door.

It’s more realistic to go after the Philippines but again the Japanese didn’t go for what amount to just a bunch of trading outpost and Spanish towns when again CHINA IS RIGHT THERE

Hideyoshi need something big. Something that can cement his rule over western japan after oda death. He isn’t born nobility and he need something that could really unite his power base badly.

If you want a colonial japan it’s easy. Just go the Hokkaido route. Which is like. Right next door. Japan don’t bother till late 19th century to really colonise Hokkaido since they have de facto subjugated the ainus via economical force for hundreds of years by than.
 
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There’s no point going so far away to invade literally fuck all when like Korea and China are just next door.
And China is the protector of Korea, and China is a Titan, by comparison Japan was a little Gremlin.
If you want a colonial japan it’s easy. Just go the Hokkaido route. Which is like. Right next door. Japan don’t bother till late 19th century to really colonise Hokkaido since they have de facto subjugated the ainus via economical force for hundreds of years by than.
Ok, what if they do that first?
 
And China is the protector of Korea, and China is a Titan, by comparison Japan was a little Gremlin.

Ok, what if they do that first?
China isn’t like an actual Titan.
Ming China have difficulties for decades in dealing with mere pirates. (Granted it’s mostly due to politics and scholar cliques being bitches). Ming China isn’t a Titan and have its own flaws readily made apparent after the Japanese invasion of Korea.

Korea? Excluding a certain admiral japan basically steam rolled the entire country before stopping due to supply issues . So yeah Japan can certainly beat Korea and deal a fuckton of damage against Ming till they get yeeted back inevitably if the Ming get their shit together. If not for an admiral and his turtle ships.

Also Edo japan never did tried to fully colonised Hokkaido because there’s no real point for it. The Ainus are forced to trade with Tokugawa anyway so there isn’t a real need to settle Hokkaido with settlers lol.
 
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So some ideas for this:
1. Surviving Oda: Nobunaga seems like both the most megalomaniac and open to innovations. So if anyone does it its him. Why he would do it? Dont know, maybe to imitate the Europeans? In hope of finding silver and gold like the europeans did? Anyway its a good place to send those daimyo's you want to get rid of who are however officially loyal.
2. A shogun decides to expel the christians fron Japan leading to mass expulsions, and the spanish decide to take them in and settle them somewhere in North America as their own colony under the spanish crown. Not really a japanese colonial power but a significant japanese colony in either California or even more North. Or if you really want to go wild someone comes up with the bright idea that they need to counterbalance british settlement in North America and as they dont have the settlers themselves decide to settle the huge number of japanese christians lets say around 1650 in todays Georgia an South Carolina as a kinda buffer state.
3. As a result of a serious war with Spain. OTL the spanish even had plans to conquer China so maybe they try something with Japan? Probably in hope of doing something with the chrisitans there? Have the japanese win the initial war also capturing spanish ships. Than procee to buold a fleet and conquer spanish holding in East Asia and top it off with a surprise invasion fleet turning up in Mexico and taking the colony ? Around 1600 the population of mexico was at its lowest after the demographic collapse, a strong Japanese army might be unexpectedly successfull.
 
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