AHC: Make Rock Music "Black" Again

Ok maybe a bit out of left field here, but I believe this is likely a subject near and dear to many of our hearts. I'm currently reading "Just Around Midnight: Rock and Roll and the Racial Imagination", by Jack Hamilton, which discusses how media marketing in the USA during the 1960s was instrumental in shifting public perceptions of "Rock" music (and/or "Rock and Roll" music) from a predominately black-consumed to a predominately white-consumed medium.

Part of this comes from retroactively re-defining "rock" music to exclude black artists who were absolutely considered rock in their time (the book references a New York Times article from 1964 which compares Bob Dylan, a folk-singer, to Sam Cooke, a "rock-and-roll star". It also references another NYT cover article from 1965 about "rock music" which featured Diana Ross and the Supremes on the cover).

It also discussed how, in a media industry which was quite segregated, many young African-American artists who were looking to emulate Jimi Hendrix, Chuck Berry and/or Muddy Waters were 'diverted' into other styles, that would come to be known as "funk" or "soul".

As an interesting aside, it seems like many of the terms that we have for modern music really just come from euphemisms the industry came up with to describe music that was predominately being consumed by black Americans. The Billboard "Rhythm and Blues" charts began as the "Race Records" charts; became "Rhythm and Blues" (at the time, referring to two separate music genres, united by perceived 'blackness') became the official name from 1949; it was discontinued from 1963 to 1965, before being called the "Soul" charts from 1969 to 1982, when it became the "Black music" chart, until 1999, when it became the "Hip-Hop/R&B chart". This being said, over time, these catch all labels have come to mean specific types of music in the popular imagination.

Ok lets maybe give an actual thesis here. As a former failed musician myself, I'm aware that African-American participation in 'rock' music never really died, and there have always been African-Americans who listened to rock music, whether made by black artists or white. And of course, in my mind, if Prince isn't a rockstar, no one is. So the question is really one of the media and marketing - how do we keep rock music being marketed to African-Americans? Even if not all rock music is marketed to them.

And a second, related question: do all these industry terms ACTUALLY still just refer to a public perception? Is there, musically, a difference between 'rock' music and 'funk' music, for example, aside from the colour of those who it is predominately marketed to? This last part I really struggle with, again, as a musician, to me Sly Stone, P-Funk, Marvin Gaye, the Beatles and Metallica are all just different expressions of music, which we now call "rock and roll", that is deeply rooted in African-American musical traditions of the deep south, particularly blues, gospel, and jazz. When talking to non-musicians, however (which is, you know, most people) it seems that the vast majority of people don't see it this way.

So I guess the question is two-fold: is there a meaningful distinction between "rock" and "r&b", or is "rock" really just a subset of "r&b". And if rock is meaningfully different than r&b, is there a way to retain a large African-American consumption of rock music?

It's worth pointing out that the book points out that the false racial dichotomy of black vs white is perhaps nowhere more visible in the modern world than in modern musical terminology. I, and the author, acknowledge that human reality is far more complex than the labels on bins at the record store.

I'm interested in hearing peoples thoughts and opinions on the matter, it's just something that I've been considering a lot. I don't know if I have a meaningful way of distinguishing the "electric blues" from "blues rock". And, well, that's the music I grew up playing.
 
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I mean honestly you cant. The entire reason labels are made is to make understanding things easier and with the then political and ideological climate I doubt you could change things. Even then it would not surprise me if a division happens anyways as African Americans try to create their own musical genre that is African American in nature and owned which would likely happen especially as a reaction to the changes in America and the greater African American culture at that time.
 

Sekhmet_D

Kicked
So the question is really one of the media and marketing - how do we keep rock music being marketed to African-Americans? Even if not all rock music is marketed to them.

And if rock is meaningfully different than r&b, is there a way to retain a large African-American consumption of rock music?
The answer is obvious. You need to somehow kill off both rap and hip hop.
 

Sekhmet_D

Kicked
And a second, related question: do all these industry terms ACTUALLY still just refer to a public perception? Is there, musically, a difference between 'rock' music and 'funk' music, for example, aside from the colour of those who it is predominately marketed to? This last part I really struggle with, again, as a musician, to me Sly Stone, P-Funk, Marvin Gaye, the Beatles and Metallica are all just different expressions of music, which we now call "rock and roll", that is deeply rooted in African-American musical traditions of the deep south, particularly blues, gospel, and jazz. When talking to non-musicians, however (which is, you know, most people) it seems that the vast majority of people don't see it this way.
As for this. Metallica, Motown and the Beatles may have sprung forth from a common African American musical tradition, but in their ultimate incarnations they could not belong to three more different genres of music. And I speak as both a classically trained pianist and a longtime metalhead.
 

THE KINGFISH

Gone Fishin'
Have the civil rights gains of the 1960s happen in the 1950s instead (perhaps a decisive victory in Korea and Dewey being President) and have major black performers like Berry avoid his scandals too. That’s my best guess with a minimum amount of divergences.
 
For me who lived through it all. In the 40s & most of the 50s there was 'popular music - Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Matt Munro Perry Como, and many more. They sang or crooned the song s that were crafted by professional songwriters.
Then along came 'Rock & Roll, led in the US by Elvis, Gene Vincent, Buddy Holly, and others, both Elvis & Buddy Holly were influenced by 'black' music - i.e. 'Blues'. While in the UK, people wanted to make their own music - hence Skiffle was born - Joe Brown & Lonnie Donegan. Then little Cliff Richard & the Shadows arrived - his career spanned decades. Even while this was going on - 'popular' music
was still prominent. It's importance rapidly dropped when the British 'groups' arrived on the scene, the Beatles influenced by Buddy Holly and the Rolling Stones by Muddy Waters, others groups from the searchers to the Animals followed one or the other.
When the US had the British 'invasion', and were asked who were their influences - non-plused by the answer of Muddy Waters! Yet, it was the addition of black bluesmen to back the concerts by British groups that brought 'black' music to white America. Soul Music - Sam Cooke, Otis Redding, Percy Sledge was IMHO how the Blues evolved. It was either on the Atlantic label or Tamla Motown - Supremes et al.

Will continue tomorrow.
 
The answer is obvious. You need to somehow kill off both rap and hip hop.
I dunno I listened to a lot of rap rock as a kid.

On that point,

Why is "Gasoline Dreams" by OutKast rap* [or is it?] but "Vietnow" by Rage Against the Machine is rock [or is it?]

Legitimately curious to see what everyone thinks. I don't think there are any wrong answers to the questions I'm asking in the thread, and so I greatly appreciate the input (from everyone) so far

edit: or why is it hip-hop* as @Mildtryth correctly points out
 
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Have the civil rights gains of the 1960s happen in the 1950s instead (perhaps a decisive victory in Korea and Dewey being President) and have major black performers like Berry avoid his scandals too. That’s my best guess with a minimum amount of divergences.
Interesting. Just after posting, I had considered the impact that Jimi Hendrix living longer may have had. I've read his biography and Jimi (who listened to almost exclusively black artists growing up) was dismayed that there were so few black people at his concerts (he wasn't upset that there were white people listening, of course, he just wanted young black people listening as well). Now, not being at his concerts definitely doesn't mean they weren't listening, but once Jimi came back to America and made the big time, he consciously moved his music in a more black-centric direction. Had he lived longer, his later output may have been more in the vein of Funkadelic than Led Zeppelin. Of course, this could have the effect of making Jimi Hendrix less revered among the white rock music fandom. But it seems like having a few more rock stars to nurture and scout black talent (considering the white record execs were actively pushing them into other genres) could have had a lasting impact, like if "Electric Ladyland" came to mean the same thing for black rock as "Motown" does for its genre.
 
Also, while we're here, we mustn't necessarily be limited to America. So for anyone wasn't aware, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamrock
They kept rockin in Zambia right through the 70s and into the early 80s!


(this song would likely be called soul in the USA; WITCH and Paul Ngozi's early albums have a much more Sabbath-influence sound)
 
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Sekhmet_D

Kicked
On that point,

Why is "Gasoline Dreams" by OutKast rap* [or is it?] but "Vietnow" by Rage Against the Machine is rock [or is it?]

edit: or why is it hip-hop* as @Mildtryth correctly points out
The instrumentation, I would say.

Vietnow's accompanying instrumentation is just as important to the song's structure as are the vocals, and much more traditionally 'rock like' with that crunchy bass and guitar, plus the complex drumming.

Gasoline Dreams on the other hand features the same bored guitar riff and drum machine beat on loop, over and over again; the instrumentation clearly takes a backseat to the rapping.

If Vietnow and Gasoline Dreams are respectively performed live, I guarantee you Vietnow will feature the instrumentation actually being played by live musicians, rock style, whereas the instrumentation for Gasoline Dreams will be nothing but simple playback.
 
The instrumentation, I would say.

Vietnow's accompanying instrumentation is just as important to the song's structure as are the vocals, and much more traditionally 'rock like' with that crunchy bass and guitar, plus the complex drumming.

Gasoline Dreams on the other hand features the same bored guitar riff and drum machine beat on loop, over and over again; the instrumentation clearly takes a backseat to the rapping.

If Vietnow and Gasoline Dreams are respectively performed live, I guarantee you Vietnow will feature the instrumentation actually being played by live musicians, rock style, whereas the instrumentation for Gasoline Dreams will be nothing but simple playback.
Musically I think this is a good answer. It's kind of where I go as well (and a primary reason for me calling Prince a rockstar, he's a phenomenally talented multi-instrumentalist).

So...if a group formed where the DJ used turntables to cover the rhythm section, we had an MC who rapped, and a lead guitarist who played live - have we hit the gap and formed a true crossover group? Or is it just rap with a guitar player? I mean of course you can't make that assessment without hearing the music, just kind of thinking out loud.

Also...is reggae a form of rock?
 
Musically I think this is a good answer. It's kind of where I go as well (and a primary reason for me calling Prince a rockstar, he's a phenomenally talented multi-instrumentalist).

So...if a group formed where the DJ used turntables to cover the rhythm section, we had an MC who rapped, and a lead guitarist who played live - have we hit the gap and formed a true crossover group? Or is it just rap with a guitar player? I mean of course you can't make that assessment without hearing the music, just kind of thinking out loud.

Also...is reggae a form of rock?
Congrats, you've just reinvented Nu Metal. Seriously, a lot of Nu Metal acts were set up exactly like you described: rap MC, lead guitarist, DJ using turntables for rhythm. I'm thinking of Crazy Town in particular, who as I understand it were not unusual in their setup for the genre. Now, Nu Metal is considered rock music due to the instrumentation and direct lineage to prior metal acts and genres. The other side of the coin, i.e. hip-hop with rock instrumentation, does exist, but seems to have mostly died out in the 1990s, with rap rock becoming associated with rock bands with rap vocals - even the Beastie Boys switched to that style.

As far as reggae, it is not rock, but it is known to have influenced rock - Eric Clapton's cover of "I Shot the Sheriff" being the most famous example.
 
Contd.
Inspired by the British groups, American youth formed their own bands, taking their image from the British rather than the 'clean-cut' Beach Boys - so you had The Band, Credence Clearwater Revival, and the Eagles, to name just a few, there some that had both black & white members - Earth Wind & Fire which got labeled 'Funk'. While back in the UK OTOH grew more experimental(perhaps helped by drugs), following in the steps of the Beatles Sgt Pepper - which led to Progressive Rock - e.g. Yes, King Crimson, ELP, and Blodwyn Pig. OTOH Blues Rock - Free, Cream, and Led Zeppelin. Fleetwood Mac, started as a Blues band, but after thee problems of Peter Green evolved into more of 'Eagles' type sound. And finally, there's the Heavy metal Rock - where you can be overwhelmed by the power of the sound, yet captivated by some of the guitar riffs.
Meanwhile, black youth rejecting the Blues, as 'old man's music trod a new path - and hip-hop was born.
In the 70s over awed by the technique of Progressive Rock, rebelled and 'Punk' was born, gradually some of such bands get better.
IMHO the distinction between Rock & Roll, and Rock, is the rhythm - with the former you can dance with your partner with hand contact - jive, yet with latter pop music and Rock, the beat was different - best to pick out the drumbeat.
Sadly, in the 21st century, music has become more manufactured - may get worse with AI, no longer do we marvel at the drummer, or the guitar player - it's all via the machine. As for 'groups' in the 90s there was Oasis since then .... ? These days for me just Adele & Rag N' Bone Man.
 
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Congrats, you've just reinvented Nu Metal. Seriously, a lot of Nu Metal acts were set up exactly like you described: rap MC, lead guitarist, DJ using turntables for rhythm. I'm thinking of Crazy Town in particular, who as I understand it were not unusual in their setup for the genre. Now, Nu Metal is considered rock music due to the instrumentation and direct lineage to prior metal acts and genres. The other side of the coin, i.e. hip-hop with rock instrumentation, does exist, but seems to have mostly died out in the 1990s, with rap rock becoming associated with rock bands with rap vocals - even the Beastie Boys switched to that style.

As far as reggae, it is not rock, but it is known to have influenced rock - Eric Clapton's cover of "I Shot the Sheriff" being the most famous example.
Interestingly, I shot the sherrif is sometimes viewed as an example of cultural appropriation. Personally I think that this is bollocks and makes about as much sense as saying Bowie (or anyone else) shouldn't have reinvented themselves or evolved their style.

But reggae and rock are cousins, and both can work well together, just as rock and rap can work, metal and classical, and rock and bagpipes [1] etc. Good musicians can play in many styles, and long may they borrow, steal and learn from other genres. I reserve tbe right not to like their inventions, but it would be a sad day if people stopped trying new combinations, or just playing what they liked .

[1] ACDC are definitely rock and definitely have used bagpipes - and surprisingly well too.
 
So...if a group formed where the DJ used turntables to cover the rhythm section, we had an MC who rapped, and a lead guitarist who played live - have we hit the gap and formed a true crossover group? Or is it just rap with a guitar player? I mean of course you can't make that assessment without hearing the music, just kind of thinking out loud.
Reminds me of Bill McClintock's videos on Youtube.
 
Speaking of crossovers, a hip-hop/punk crossover would make a lot of sense; and even if he didn't play punk, a surviving Kurt Cobain would probably be the right person for the job: he grew up in conditions that would've inspired a whole hip-hop discography had he been born black, after all, and his music reflected that. That said, every time black individuals or organizations tried to reach out to poor whites IRL, bullets tended to follow, and I fear Cobain and any hypothetical black collaborator of his would get the same treatment.
 
So...if a group formed where the DJ used turntables to cover the rhythm section, we had an MC who rapped, and a lead guitarist who played live - have we hit the gap and formed a true crossover group? Or is it just rap with a guitar player? I mean of course you can't make that assessment without hearing the music, just kind of thinking out loud.
I've been thinking about compositional differences in the five modes of composition for electronic music:
  1. Sequencer loops: where a master or multiple 8/16+ ('horizontally scrolling') step sequencers trigger instrumentation commands on devices, and often whole tracks are laid out as simultaneous loops but the variance is the levels, chiefly on/off variances. Genre standards: Detroit-influenced techno / Chicago-influenced house. This compositional mode often results in rhythmically identical units repeated and removed or reintroduced. [I often think a lot of "traditional" and "folk dance" uses similar methods, which is how I excuse having collected so many polka LPs in the 1990s]
  2. Tracker patterns: where a single piece of software using 64+ ('vertically scrolling') step patterns triggers the playing of samples or of external instrumentation commands. Tracks are laid out as the selection of an ordered list of individual patterns. Patterns often have a limited voice selection (4 voices classically), with new voice triggers traditionally halting old sample playback on a "channel." In 4 channel composition this results in Drums 1, Drums 2, Bass, and Voice. Variance is usually in composition of which pattern selected. Often "block" samples such as Amen, Jungle Brother, or the bassline / synthline voice are retuned to stretch to 64 ticks. **Often** involves no or low music training, and often "selects" based on success from lots of untrained producers who think a chord sequence just means retuning the sample, but care a lot about how to cut up a breakbeat. Unlike sequencer loops, different patterns are used to introduce different sounds. This compositional mode often falls back on the song structures of rock-genres. Genre standards: a lot of gabber and hardcore, *some* jungle, breakcore, demo-scene music.
  3. Turntablism (and tape loops!). A "selector" or "disc jockey" produces a backing track and some sample or solo elements, allowing a "toaster" or "MC" or "rapper" to provide a manually articulated spoken line often of rhythmic centrality, allowing but not requiring other manually articulated performances over the top. This emphasizes mashing and looping existing known works (often "lesser or unknown" works). UK dub, hip-hop, rap, "turntablism" as a virtuouso instrumental performance, intensively selected or mixed DJ sets.
  4. Composition for manual performance by musicians playing instruments. Compositional techniques traditional to genres or instruments are then permuted by access to new instrument techniques. New Wave, Industrial, Italo/Eurobeat, Eno ("Rock" albums), Weathermen, Eno ("Studio Producer"), Abba ("Studio band"), Boney M., Reggae and Jamaican Dub ("Studio as instrument," gee I wonder where Eno got that idea?)
  5. Classically motivated composition: people with training in compositional techniques, primarily classical often jazz, then sequence or articulate manually. This is compositionally influenced by the impact of training and new techniques available by instruments. Wendy Carlos, Eno (Ambient), Cage, Hendrix's play with further technique, Abba.

Obviously you can compose any of these for any of these instrument clusters (seeing a "big band" play jungle is lovely), but the compositional limits imposed selection for certain habits. The fundamental simplicity of some gabber doesn't make sense unless your chief compositional element is an Amiga 1200. The rolling loops of Detroit don't make sense unless your fundamental compositional unit is 8 step sequencers. If you're running a mastering studio pumping volume, you get Dub, Boney M., Abba, Italo, Disco.

I don't see compositional limitations on the N>10 musician structure of jazz, blues, country, rock, rhythm, funk.

I see record label, radio station, and touring producer marketing limits on the portrayal of how a 3 guitar band is blues, country, rock, metal or punk.

So the issue isn't compositional force (until "the studio" becomes an instrument), it is US marketting that determines why having a banjo makes something Blues or Country rather than Rock or Funk. From over here 4 channels of 8 bit samples the banjo just looks like a different guitar sample.

So what if country was never bleached?
What if classical composition and jazz composition were applied by Labels to selected guitar bands who were "fronts"? Even if, like with Abba, the band is it's own front?

yours,
Sam R.
 
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